Ep. 154: What Nobody Tells You About Perfectionism w/ Audrey Holst
Are you or have you ever been a perfectionist in at least one area of your life? There’s a good chance the answer to that is “yes.”
Which is why this episode with perfection expert Audrey Holst is going to be so impactful for you.
In this episode she shares what’s REALLY at the root of perfection, how it can rear its ugly head in sneaky ways even if you think you’ve gotten beyond perfection, what to do about it so it doesn’t hold you back or burn you out, and why it’s urgent that we deal with perfection right now.
I’ve learned so much from her over the years and even more in this conversations. It’s such an important topic and can be so damaging for so many reasons.
Links:
Plan for Profit: bit.ly/planforprofitguide
Audrey’s Website: fortitudeandflow.com
The Perfectionist Archetype Guide: fortitudeandflow.com/perfectionist
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/audrey-holst
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On this episode of sell it, sister, I got to talk with my friend, Audrey, who is brilliant when it comes to perfectionism. And when I say brilliant, I really really mean it. She has done tons and tons and tons of research into it and not going to lie as somebody who feels like, oh, I'm a recovering perfectionist, which we talk a little bit about in the episode.
Um, there was some things that she shared where I was like, oh, maybe I'm not as recovered as I thought. So, uh, really, really good stuff. So even if you're like, I don't know, I think I used to struggle with it, but I don't think I do anymore. I'm going to save, just give it a listen anyways. Cause you might be surprised about certain areas of your life.
You're still doing it, um, that you may not even realize or certain ways you are doing it in places where you're like, nah, I'm pretty sure I'm fine, but it's sneakier than you realize, unfortunately. So this is definitely definitely an episode to check out. And also it's really important now that we. Learn about this and learn how to deal with it.
Um, for several reasons that we talk about in the episode. So a little bit about Audrey Audrey hosts works with ambitious high-performers to identify and address their pre burnout and toxic perfectionism, so they can fully enjoy their careers and lives. She's the creator of the perfectionist, archetypes and founder of the fortitude and flow process, which fuses mindful and embody practices to create sustainable transformation.
Her work goes beyond mindset and addresses. Perfectionisms impossible standards at their root cause. See, like I said, different than regular, uh, you know, regular, just chit chat about perfectionism. This goes much, much deeper and is so good. And I just know you are going to get a ton out of this episode, so I won't keep you here in the intro any longer.
Let's head to the interview. Hello, Audrey. Welcome to the sellout sister podcast. I am absolutely thrilled that you are here and I'm incredibly excited to talk about perfectionism today. Uh, it's a such a huge, huge thing, but first, um, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself? I know there's the whole intro with your formal bio, but like how the hell did you end up at perfectionism as a focus?
Uh, for, for the, uh, for the sake of time here, I'll do the, I'll do the quick and dirty version of that. Um, so I. Uh, I originally was working with the symptoms of perfectionism and knowing what the symptoms of perfectionism looks like, uh, in myself. Right. That's been one of those things that I'm not one of those people sitting on the, on the mountain top, you know, speaking unto you all about perfectionism, because I have no idea what it's like to be in the trenches.
No, I'm currently always in the trenches and finding my way through just as the rest of everybody. Else's right. So, um, so I have always been somebody that puts a good amount of pressure on myself to do big things, um, that has changed as time has gone on, but it's always been part of my makeup, um, thrive, you know, just this kind of internal drive has always been a piece of me.
Uh, recently when I was going through some boxes at my house, uh, I found my. Kindergarten report card. It said something like Audrey is starting to get better at being okay with making mistakes. And I think probably things like, you know, kind of stopped about there, like, you know, in terms of my okayness and making mistakes.
But, um, so I had my own embodied personal experiences with perfectionism and I don't think I had the words for it at that point. Um, a lot of the work that I did over time. So I've worked with, uh, I started with working with high, uh, high energy horses. So I did some training of horses when I was younger.
So really, really high energy, uh, race, horse type horses and, and helping them calm down. And then I worked in a really, uh, intense yoga industry for over 17 years with people who were in a very, a type personality practice. So I was involved with those people for a really long time. And, and I started to see these, the symptoms of what, at that point I was like, Burnout.
Right. I was seeing people come away with burnout on a regular basis. And when I started coaching, when I started to see the people who are resonating with the way I worked and what I said, there was a lot of people with burnout. So I was like, huh, this burnout thing seems to be a thing. The more I dug into it, the more I realized that I did not want to be a burnout person.
I knew a lot about it, but it's not, it was not my sweet spot in terms of how well I work with people. My current coach nailed the term perfectionism. And as soon as it landed, I was like, that's what it is. It's the, it's that human level that I like working with people on what I considered to be toxic perfectionism and that pre burnout state.
So it's like before people get super crispy and fried that's my sweet spot is working with those people who are like, things are not, things are fine, but they're not great. But if I keep going on like this, it's not going to be good. That's where I thrive. Those are where those people that I work the best with enjoy working the best with our gotcha.
Gotcha. That's so cool. And I it's, uh, it's interesting. I didn't even know about the yoga part, which I'm like, wow, that's wild because I've known you for a few years now. Um, but yeah, my, my friend, uh, I have a friend who is certified yoga instructor and, um, she does mindful self-compassion work and, uh, we talk, we, we call that type of yoga, shirtless, handstand yoga, because it's always like the Instagram, you know, it's like the dudes with the.
Shirtless doing a handstand, like proving how bad-ass they are at yoga on the gram. So that's what we call it. Yeah. And I, I worked in a, you know, I, I, uh, I worked in a hot yoga setting, so I used to spend hours and hours and hours and a hundred, five degree room, um, teaching really, uh, what is a pretty intense, uh, practice for years and years and years and years and years.
Oh my gosh. That's hardcore. That's hardcore. Um, so I know that we like your, uh, we're going to talk about like perfection as survival and also like, why it can't wait, like why we need to talk about us. I feel like those two things correct me if I'm wrong, but like really go hand in hand, like kind of like how you view it and like why we need to even care so much about it right now, right?
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. Let's hit that. So. Perfectionist. And this is something that I hear on a regular basis is perfectionists tend to be very intellectually aware and, and driven meaning that they are, they know a lot, they know a lot about how they are when I, when I did my, I did over 60 hours of interviews with perfectionists and.
Many of them would, would call themselves recovering perfectionist. And they were aware of their perfectionism. Right. They could see it. They knew where it came from. When I asked them to tell their stories, they could even bring it back to like the origin of when they were little. They could, they could take that story storyline through its full arc.
The thing with perfectionism is when people start to try to address it from a like heady perspective, that's not how it works because it's wired into our bodies. It's wired from the neck down. It's not a, I just need to think differently situation. It's actually wired into how we feel safe and how we feel belonging, which is a nervous system level.
Not a, oh, I just need to think differently about this level, which is often where perfectionists feel like if I can figure this out, right. If I can do all the research on perfectionism, understand it perfectly, then something is going to magically change. That is the journey that many people go on and find that they're not actually getting anywhere with.
Yeah. And you know, like that, I just, I can relate so well to that because it's that thing both for myself and with a lot of my clients, it's like the desire to be like, For me, my trigger is messaging. Well, if I just let me just like rework my messaging one more time, let me like tinker with, you know, when I get the messaging perfect Zen, you know, that'll be the secret sauce.
Right. And it's like, um, or like, you know, when I get the offer sweet, perfect. Or when I get the perfect niche, like those are kind of the things I hear. And then like when you go underneath it, it's usually the like, well, if I, if I change, what if, what if everything goes away, right? Like if I raise my prices or change my audience, like what if this all falls apart and then like, which I feel like is also just that thing of like, then what does it say about me?
Right. It all comes back to most of the perfectionist fear, come back to something. Uh, some and again, sometimes this is like levels and levels down, right? Sometimes it's not just sitting on the, on the surface for people, but it's some version of this fundamentally flawed thing about me. And because this thing is fundamentally flawed, it's going to impact my survival again.
That's how my body's interpreting it. Or it's going to impact my belonging with my village, which is also going to impact my survival. So that is the, on the bodily level interpretation of things. Why that fear kicks off at me feel like, oh, well I can't write. The messaging has to be right. It shows up with emails for some reason, for a lot of people too.
So afraid of like sending emails to their lists. Sorry, I didn't mean to talk over you, but I hear that. I see all the time. I know I need to email my list, but what do I say? And I'm always like what? You just, just write to them. Regular people. Cause that's what they like when it's ice. It's it's amazing to me.
Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I dunno. That's but that's, that's exactly right. There's this relational quality to things right there. There, it's not just perfectionist in a bubble by themselves. It's perfectionist in relation to other people business work the world outside. That's where the things get, get messy.
Yeah. And I think too, there's that level of like, um, especially in the online business community where it's like, well, if I'm not having success anymore than like, what will all my peers think? Or if I pivot, like, are they going to be talking shit about me behind my back and yeah. Things. Yeah. Yeah. And the perception of, of other people's success based on the veneer that we see.
On in people's posts or in people's marketing and the perception of, of what that means about the backend. I think there's a lot of that that goes on where, oh my gosh, this person is doing so well. And they're so successful. And look at this launch and look at this marketing and having all of this interpretation that well, mine doesn't look like that.
So that means something there's a lot of meaning-making that comes out of what we are observing. Oh, totally. Totally. Honestly, I think that, that is when I talk to clients about like, feeling like they are, are like kind of like struggling to be on social media. I feel like there's a big part of it that is like, It becomes more than just like, well, I don't know what to post or like, I don't know how to make the graphics, or I don't know what hashtags to use it's that you open the app and you go to make the post and then you see what other people are posting.
And then you're like, oh crap. Like their graphics are so much better. Or like, whatever, right. Like we're like, oh, they have that program. And like, I should have that program or they have a podcast and I still haven't launched my pot. It's it's that? And then you're like doing all this draining, emotional labor on yourself, just when like, You're just trying to make a post and like, you know, check your DMS or something like that.
Yes, yes. And this is, this is, this actually for, is perfectly into the four CS of perfectionism, the four CS, the perfectionism, our comparison, which is what's often happening when you're opening. Cause this, this, in this context, it works out perfectly. You're comparing yourself. As soon as you get onto the app, you're not just looking at somebody's posts and saying, oh, that's so cool.
That person is doing it. It's the, oh, I should be doing. Or, or I've said I was going to what I haven't done. There's so that comparison starts right away. There's a, there's this competition. So that's the second C so comparison competition where it feels like there's this, it's almost like a vying for resources feeling where it's like, well, we can't both exist in this same space and be successful.
They win and I lose, or I went and they lose and there's this very great. Dynamic that happens there. There's the third C, which is control, which is just kind of that general, uh, that, that shows up in all sorts of different ways. And, and a lot of that is that trying to control the outcome of something.
Like if you're going to launch something, you're only going to launch it. If you're a hundred percent guaranteed, it's going to be successful. Otherwise why bother because, and then conditional relationships, which is also that thing that you touched upon in terms of, okay, well, my colleagues are only going to have any sort of positive feelings about me are only going to support me as long as I'm doing this particular thing, this particular way, these conduct, these relationships are conditional.
They're based on a specific, uh, series of requirements. And if those series of requirements are not met, then these relationships go away. So these things are very, uh, common in, in perfectionism. And it can, you can see why, oh my gosh, it's so stifling. If you feel like everything is contingent upon a particular way of looking at the particular way of being, um, and that you can't just.
Show up as your full humanity, because there seems like there was such high consequences. Yeah. And I, and I do feel like, especially in the last couple years, um, I don't know if you follow Clementine Morgan, um, Instagram, uh, it like, she talks a lot about, I think she, I think her pronouns are she, maybe she, they, um, hopefully I'm not mis-gendering her, uh, but talks a lot about, um, cancel culture because she was canceled and like went through that and now she's a really big, um, like outspoken person on like the harms of cancel culture and also like the need for restorative justice and all this stuff.
And I feel like, especially in the last few years, um, it's so funny actually, a past client. And I were just talking about this in email, uh, yesterday. About this, like this fear of like, oh, when people are talking about like bad industry practices, it's like that, like, even though like you're not doing it, but you're like, is it me?
They're talking about me. Aren't they, I'm probably doing something bad. I'm probably like, you know, any moment now somebody is going to say some shit about me and it's all going to be over. Like I, yeah. And I will be like exiled from the village permanently. And like, I just can't. I cannot risk that. Yes.
Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of the things. The body is often, and this is something that I, uh, will talk to clients about. But I think is an interesting thing to talk about in terms of the body and how we, the body translates messaging. If, if the body, uh, approximates a feeling that it's felt before it often is trying to finish the math on that.
Okay. Like last time I felt like this, this is what happened. So if we have any of that in our past of the, oh, I did this thing, and like I said, this thing, and this bad thing happened, maybe there's some sort of, you know, ostracization or bullying or something in our history, which I have, you know, it's like our body has that familiar feeling of what happened last time.
And often it just finishes the sentence before our brains can even quite get there. So it like reacts us right into that. Oh my gosh. Like the risks are so high before and right. We have proof in our, in our, around us, we have proof that this thing that these things happen, right? The cancel culture has such an impact and we make that automatic connection that.
Okay, well, that's, what's going to happen. Like, I don't even need to think about it. I just know that that's how the equation is going to end. So I can't even touch that with a 10 foot pole. Yeah. Oh, it's it's like it's so this is, I dunno, it just fascinates me. Like I am so glad we're talking about this. So I, uh, I would love to know, because like, in regards to why we need to be having this discussion, and obviously you're going to talk about like what people can do about it, too.
Sure. And, and there are things that like, even just from what we've said so far where I'm like, yes, it can't wait like this, all this stuff is like, it's holding good people back. I see it every day. But I would love to hear from you, especially because you have been studying this for so long, Why do you feel like this is an urgent thing that we need to be addressing?
Uh, there are so many, so many layers layers for first of all, uh, research on perfectionism in adolescents is showing. Perfectionism is not making kids better or more resilient. It's actually making them more anxious and more depressed. So we've got this, this, this, this new generation coming up who have these standards that they're trying to hit that like at young ages they are dealing with anxiety and depression due to perfectionism.
So that's a really bad scene, first of all. And so a lot of it, if you're like, okay, well, and I don't, children are not my specialty, but listen, I'm T I'm working with the parents, right. I'm working with the people who may be having those kids. So I think it's really important to have these things in our awareness.
I think another thing that's really important is that just that what you were talking about, this polarity, the right or wrong that sort of either, or is that survival mindset, and that is the perfectionist orientation is this thing is right. This thing is wrong. I have to get it right. And that's just not reality.
Reality is very nuanced. It's the both. And it's being able to hold that not only mentally, but it's actually like a physical holding, like the physical holding in my body of these two things can be true at the same time, which is a really revolutionary thing for people to be understanding that like these two truths can exist in the same space together, and that can be really uncomfortable.
And yet that can be, that can be reality. And that can be my reality, right? It can be true that this thing is true about me. And this thing is true about me and I can, I can let that be. And that's, that's a lot of that's what's important in business. You can't, if you're always on the, I did this, right. I did this wrong.
I did this right. I did this wrong. Um, it's tough to move from that, from that. And in terms of what it does to your nervous system and your body over time, there becomes this, uh, perfectionism becomes this essentially low-level chronic stress. It becomes this load on your system on a regular basis, which raises your baseline in terms of where your body wants to come back to homeostasis.
So if I'm motioning with my hands at like, you know, the bottom of the screen. So, so if this is where we're homeostasis is down here with con constant and chronic loads of stress, uh, usually the body is always trying to anticipate and figure out what's next. So it can be more efficient next time. Well, with chronic stress, your baseline starts to rise.
So now I'm motioning with my hands since you can't see me. So now my baseline is, you know, say three inches higher than it used to be. This is where I'm living now, but I don't know. This is, so this is all of the hormones in my system, the reactions in my system, my ability to handle things, everything is just on a slightly shorter, uh, uh, shorter.
What's the word I want, like a wick, you know, like a shorter or a fuse because my baseline is so much higher. And so now I have this kind of chronic, uh, the hormones are running when they're not supposed to be running. You know, the, my, my short, uh, fuse is shorter because again, my baseline is raised. So this is just has an effect on how we think it affects how we can make decisions.
It affects our body at a physiological level. So perfectionism over time can be really damaging mentally, physically, emotionally. I mean, it, it's a really huge problem. And like I said, it is starting younger and younger and younger, and it's going to be a bigger and bigger problem as we go on. Yeah. I mean, I definitely.
I am not as much of a perfectionist now. Uh, like not, not by a long shot. Um, and thank goodness, but I, I feel like that's only been in the last few years, like maybe since like 2017. Cause I did burn out at the end of 2016 and then I was just like, I have to find a different way forward. Like this is not sustainable.
We cannot be doing this. Um, but always as a kid, like I did really well in school. Like I was I'm that person where I'm like, I could never fathom my classmates that just wouldn't turn in homework. I'm like, I'm sorry. That is not an option. Right. It doesn't matter if you have to stay up all night or whatever, like you don't just get to not turn in homework.
Like that's bizarre. Right? Like I just, I couldn't even comprehend and like, Um, like I always have like the, I say like the Ron Swanson quote, like I don't, uh, like don't, half-ass two things like whole last one thing. Like somebody, like when I do something like, I'm like, I'm here. I'm all I like, I'm all in.
And, uh, but I know from, uh, when my son was younger, cause he's 17 now and we would, we homeschooled him, um, for most of his childhood. And so there was this level on me that was like, well, he has to. Do well, or else I have fucked up, right. Like, right. I have I've I'm already going against the status quo.
I've already removed myself from a village. Yes. Um, because he did go to school for a while. That was scary feeling like the judgment and everything. But I was like, no, we're going to do this. But then I was like, even though I'm not like a helicopter mom, I'm not like, I'm not any, not like that as a parent at all.
But it was like, I would get for certain things, I would get a ton of anxiety if he wasn't getting something like repeatedly. And I can look back now and go, oh, I know exactly what that was. It was a lot of fear. It was a lot of like scarcity of like, well, if he, if he can't do this, like how is he ever going to have a job?
How has it, you know, like I'm just like going 20 years into the future. Um, And I, and I see it now. I actually was just like talking to him yesterday about this, but he is in a college program and he totally has perfectionist tendencies with his schoolwork. And we've actively said like, you don't have to work like, right.
Like we've tried to backpedal on it, but I know. And like, my husband is the same. Like he was in the Navy, like the nuclear Navy. Like you cannot fuck up. There are no fuck ups. Right? Like it has to be perfect. And so I actually like can say, I see the harm that's caused because my son is a very chill person.
He's not a type a person, but I'm like, oh, I, I definitely think like, I, I'm pretty sure this one's on us. Um, and so yeah, like if I could do it differently, I a hundred percent would, but I know it came from like, I hadn't done. Well, I didn't know then what I know now, so I couldn't. Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah.
And I mean, that's, I mean, that's all of our experience, all of our experiences as kids, right. Experiences as parents, it's the, it's just like the same story in a different, different context, different time period, all that sort of stuff and like a hundred percent. And it's, um, you know, I think that it's such a, I'm actually curious to hear what your turning, what you said.
It's you said you went through this burnout and you've kind of, it's like, it seems like for you, there was like a turning point where something shifted for you after that burnout, where your perspective is different. Are you open to sharing, like, sharing that story a little bit? Cause I think that might be helpful for people to hear.
Yeah. Yeah. So I basically was like, I feel like by nature, I am a workaholic. Like I, both of my parents are because like, my mom is retired, but she's like busy, busy, busy all the time. Um, and my dad is like a true workaholic and, uh, it, and I like, when I love my work, I love doing it. Like I want to put time and energy into it.
Um, but I realized that it was coming with all these other costs. And then it got to a point kind of like why I decided to homeschool. Like, it's like where you come to that cross and you go like both of these ways for, or come with their own challenges. But like, I can no longer tolerate the challenges or the sacrifice or whatever that comes with one.
Right. Like I, uh, I was like unhappy seeing my son. Unhappy like in the American public school system. Uh, and like, and I was just like, I can't, I can't like, right. So I'm going to make different sacrifices now to homeschool him. And I feel like it was like with my business as well. I just was like, I don't know how I'm going to make this work.
I, I just, I am taking it on some sort of faith that I'm smart enough and hardworking enough and stubborn enough to figure it out. But I was like, I see. Cause I used to sell products. I was like, I see people in the online space who are making it work. Right. They, they work for themselves. They work from home.
They only need their laptop. Right. And they they're making it work. So a couple of my friends had already in like 20, like late 20, 15, 20 16 heads, a couple of them have. Moved into the world of online business. And so I was like, okay, well, if people can figure this out, I'm going to figure this out because I ha I just have to.
And so, um, and I actually kind of feel like I'm going through this, like Nat, like it's like a new level thing of having to have like belief or trust that like, it gets to be easier and better and more lucrative. Like it's, it's not the either. Or I actually have this in my marketing. Like it's not the either or it's the both.
And like, yep. I get to now show up a hundred percent as myself. Like facial piercings, weird hair, whatever, very like quote unquote unprofessional. Like what all the nuns of my Catholic high school were like, you'll be will amount to nothing. Right. Visible tattoos. Right. I am living a life now that I never thought was possible, but like, yeah, it took, it took burnout and like a whole shit ton of like, God, I hope this other thing works out in order to, to get there.
And I feel like where I'm at now is, is like, I want a new level. And I've been trying to acclimate my nervous system to again, have the belief of like, oh, even though your life is a million times better now than you ever imagined, it would be like, it can keep getting better while it keeps getting easier.
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And that's, it's such a good point. And I think that, um, like one of the things, when I hear your story is that concept of faith in yourself. And I think that's one of the things that. Really challenging. And I'll, I'll just say for maybe people who are listening, who are like, well, yeah, like, but I don't have that personality.
I don't really have that personality either, which is why I've surrounded myself with people who I believe see me and my work really well and will say, Hey, you're like, you're missing this. You're not seeing this. Hey, listen, you're doing really well over here. Like keep going. Because for me, I need a lot of that external like village, uh, reacclimate for my nervous system, because it's much easier for me to just like, Go it alone.
And that may or may not work for me. I've realized what I need is I actually need that village support, which was really, really hard for a long time to help me kind of hold that vision and have that belief for me when I'm not able to have that belief for myself. So I think that like, if people are listening and can resonate with, with your story or with my story, know that like there's not one way, right?
Like there are different ways to approach it. And what's the, like, what's the flavor combination. That's going to work with you to help you through whatever it is because everybody has a different way. And I think that process is such a piece of that, that perfectionism too is like, that process needs to work for you.
And I know that Erica will say this, I will say this. If the process isn't working for you, it's the wrong process for you. It has to be a process that works for you to get you where you want to go. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think that, um, going back to the like it's right or wrong, Thinking, and I think this is where it gets tricky in the online space.
Right. Because if you don't know, like if you don't know what you don't know in running a successful online business and people are marketing something to you as like, even if they're not saying it's the right way, they're like, oh, it's a right way. Like, it's a, it's a really good like, oh, having a, you know, I don't know, like having a course, it's a really smart way to grow.
Right. Or having a membership or having, you know, or like whatever the thing is. Right. Like, um, I think it often gets positioned as like, oh, you, you need this. Like, you're going to need this to succeed. And so people buy into those things and then they're in there and then they realize. This doesn't feel good or it's not working.
I'm not getting the same results as other people or whatever. And I think a lot of times, instead of being like, oh man, this is just, I guess this is just like, not right for me, what a bummer. I need to find a different solution. It's a lot of like self blame and shame. Like, well, if this is working for other people, like I see all these great like case studies or testimonials, like why isn't it working for me?
Right. Right. Which is why I think it's really important to have some external feedback on these things too, to be like, Hey, is it something that I re I want to have my trusted, I want to have my coach. I need to have colleagues that have done things that I haven't done before, because I may not have enough knowledge to know whether it's something that I'm doing that is just need some time or whether it's just not a good fit.
And obviously if it's feeling uncomfortable, it may be just a part of that cycle. Right. It takes some time to get going or maybe. A wrong fit. So I think it is important to have those external validators sometimes just to give you that to, to cause that's one of those things too, where we start to learn about ourselves is like, when we're very little, right, we learn about ourselves through other people, like through what we are, what we are mirrored.
And, and, and I think that, that, that learning continues on as, as we go along. And one of the things that I just went through is, um, I am somebody who's also, I'm wired, I'm wired to work hard. And I often am not able to track that I am working hard because it's normal for me. So I'm like, you know, I'm dealing with this, I've had this like neck tension that's been going on for a few weeks.
And like, I went to the acupuncturist and a spasm in my back was so bad that I literally bent the acupuncturist needles. And, um, and my husband's like, well, you know, you see a little bit, maybe you're stressed. I'm like, but I don't feel stressed. And then, you know, and I, so I mentioned this to my coach and she basically like gave me this laundry list of things I've been working on.
Like, you know, It might be town for a long time for like a down cycle for you. And it's like, oh, okay. But again, these are things that you're a hard worker. You may just be wired to not really notice these things because it's kind of part of your usual way of working. So for me, I need those people to be like, Hey, yeah, you've been going at it.
Like somebody said something about today, like, oh, you got a big day to day. I'm like, do what? I don't know. This seems like a normal day. So having those sort of reality checks from the outside is really is, is super important. You need that internal guidance, which you start to connect to and you also need those external people that you can trust.
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's such a good point. And I, I feel like, I, I mean, I'm not even, I feel like I know I would not be where I am and like, feel how I feel about myself in a good way. Without my like close friends and communities and stuff, like, it really has made the biggest difference, uh, all along. And it's why I generally speaking, when I invest in coaching it's group programs, because I want a community, like, I, I want that.
Um, and oh my gosh. The thing about like, yeah, it feels like a lot or like you're, you're doing a lot and you don't even realize it. It makes me think of. Somebody on Twitter. And I noticed has been like screenshot and shared. It was like, oh, I was talking to my therapist and about me doing my best. And she was like, but if you're always doing your best, that's not your best.
It just becomes your new normal. And then like you can't top it, you know, like you see, there's nothing else. That is, that is such a perfectionist thing. And the, the level starts at 110%. And then every, if you can hit that 110%, every single time the bar gets raised, this is something that, again, in those interviews over and over again, it was like, well, it's just natural that people don't even think of any other way.
Like that's the only way there is, is I have to do 110%. And then the next time I got to do better, there's always this like ongoing betterness scale. Um, which is. Just when you, when you think about that, it's like, wow, wow. Yeah, yeah. It's impossible. Like you are literally setting yourself up for an impossibility and for extreme burnout at the very least.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. And I think too, it's like, um, the, you know, just I'm like picturing back to things like, uh, my days are a lot more like generally like spacious and stuff now, like by design. Um, but yeah, I mean, I can think back to when I was running a different business, homeschooling, my son, like doing all of this and like, thinking about like, oh my day is so jam packed.
But like, I also remember at that time still feeling like, oh, there's so many things I'm not getting to though. Like, I was so busy and like, Always on the go and yet it was like, oh, but I'm not reading enough or I'm not cooking enough. Or I'm not like, whatever, it was never, there was no amount of whatever that would ever be enough because something would always have to be put to the side, just like, because this is life, right.
Like, right. But, uh, but yeah, like I would never look at like what I have achieved. Um, just what I had not yet achieved totally at the end of there is this weird, um, I can totally relate to that feeling. And there's this weird unspoken expectation that somehow it all can be done. Right. Then you can have it all and check everything off your to-do list and all the things you want to do and have to write that somehow, that, that it's realistic, that all of that can happen.
That's BS. I'm sorry, like I'm just going to burst some bubbles here. Like there are, when you are doing things well, there are other things you will not be doing well, and that is humanity and that is human capacity. And that is the, the, you know, constraints of time. And unless you able to delegate and hire out a lot of these things that you can't do, that is something that, that you have to get on board with at some point.
Yeah. Which again, that's part of the practice perfectionism. Totally. And I think now it's like, uh, what I've noticed in myself and my clients, because my clients are, you know, go getters and stuff too is, you know, as we live through like many horrors of the world and life and late stage capitalism and all of these things, um, our bar.
Has been forced to be lowered because we can't keep up. And I feel like it's almost made it worse because now there's that other added layer of judgment of like, well, I'm fine. I'm safe. I'm okay. My family's okay. Like I'm still making money, you know, all of these things. And it's like, because it's intangible.
Like we, we cannot see like the weight of the suffering on us, like that we just know is like happening and that we're, you know, consuming like in the media or whatever. And I feel like that is just, uh, it's, it's that feeling of like, I used to be able to do so much, like why can I. Do I do three things in a day and I'm exhausted and like, yeah.
Yeah. I feel like there's three. Oh, let me see it. Let me see if my brain can hold the three things that came up for me as you were talking about that. Yeah. The first thing being, um, yes, the collective has an impact on us. We are humans with nervous systems, nervous systems, interact with each other and create impact.
Um, just as like an example, if you are around somebody who is you're on a coworker, that's stressed, it will increase your cortisol by 26%. If you're on zoom with somebody that's stressed, you will increase your cortisol by 24%. So just being in around somebody who is experiencing stress affects us, right?
So that's not just like some woo thing that is, that's a legit, actual studied phenomenon. So that's a piece of it. So we, we can't talk about us not being impacted by the collective like that. That's real. Um, the other piece of that is. I think that, uh, one of the I've had been having a lot of conversations about capacity.
And I think that there is a, um, something that I've been curious about is it's very possible that our capacities are, you know, perhaps what they were before, but our inability to, to go over our capacity has been limited. And we're just like our tolerance for being over capacity is limited. So now we're starting to hit our class day and be like, you know what?
I don't have it in me to push past anymore. I don't have it that push past it. The other thing that I've, um, that I think creates issues, and I've seen this with clients is people are anybody who is aware of their, um, their, their relative privilege in, in the state of things, being on fire and things being really rough and a lot of places collectively.
As I think some people tend to jump to gratitude before they've actually felt the impact that they need to feel about how reality is for them. So what I mean by that is people will say like, I will have clients be like, well, I'm really struggling with X. And they'll like, start into that sentence and immediately cut themselves off and be like, but I'm so grateful that like, I have the resources that I have and I'm people to care for them.
And I say, listen, yes. And you can't cut your, you can't cut yourself off from what you need to feel by throwing in gratitude first. Like that's not, that's actually not a beneficial thing. Like you need to feel bad, you need to feel the feelings of impact. You need to feel the things you're struggling with.
You need to feel that at a level that you can do with them before you throw in the like, but I'm so grateful, like, yeah. Sure, but let's make sure that we are addressing, again, all of these things, like feeling the impact of these things so that we can actually move through them and deal with them as opposed to essentially numbing ourselves out with this kind of level of, but I'm so grateful, but, but my system is not okay.
Based on all of the things that are happening. So that's, those are my three little points on, on what you just said there. And I think it's important. Yeah. I, uh, I have never heard it put that way before about like cutting off the feelings that you need to feel like with gratitude, like bypassing your feelings with gratitude.
That is fascinating. I feel like I'm going to be like, it's like, when you see it, you can't unsee it. One of those things, it's something you will track. You will, you will track it and clients moving forward, I think. Yeah. So that is just, yeah. Like I'm, I'm going to be like thinking on that all day for sure.
I love it. So, okay. So we know it's obviously it's. Wreaking havoc. It's not good. So what can people start to do about it? So one of the big things that perfectionism does is it takes people on a journey away. It takes them on the, all the things that are going to go wrong in the future. It's going to take them on all the things that are going to happen.
It's going to orient them towards something outside of themselves. So the biggest practices, and, and this is so annoying to anybody. It's a perfectionist because it's very slow and it's very basic, but it's just starting to. Really embody the practice of noticing. So it's very basic because again, our brain wants to go off and talk about concepts.
It wants to talk about the things out there. I want people to just start orienting towards literally what's in front of them. What's in the room around you. What is your physical body doing? What are the sensations inside your body telling you? Because this is what's in the moment right now that you actually have influence and awareness over which perfectionism does not live here.
Perfectionism lives somewhere else, it's out there. So just starting to have people gain information from their immediate present surroundings themselves and their physical surroundings, and even what is happening in their brains, how they process information. Are they visual? Are they thought process?
Are they sensational? Just starting to get to know themselves is the very basic piece because. Once people start to orient towards themselves. And as a physical being, moving on a physical planet, it starts to be easier to move away from the, but I'm not that over there. And I'm not that over there because they start to realize, oh, this is me right here.
Like this, the physicality of me is this. And it gives you something to orient back towards, over and over again, which is if we were just humans on the planes, just walking around, that's how we would be functioning is we'd be using all of the information around and within us to make decisions, which still is the best place to be making your decisions from even in a world that is filled with technology and concepts and, um, you know, the internet, which is a whole, it's like being oriented towards 15 different, you know, uh, ecosystems at the same time, which is very overloading for our brains.
Yeah. Super, super overloading. I feel like it's just, yeah. It, it makes you it's like makes you think or like have to pay attention to, or the feeling of having to pay attention to a lot of things at any one given time. Um, which, yeah, it's just, uh, I actually, like, I, I can't give a real example cause I've been, I don't know if you know, uh, Jade, Dugan.
Yeah. So, uh, so I am in her for future sake programs. So it's all about spotting the phenomena, like just like, you know, what she's talking about, and this literally happened the other day. It was like, you get the email, that's like the vague email, like, oh, do you have 10 minutes for a call? And I was just like, oh my God.
Like it was from a client. And I was immediately like, Oh, like 10 miles ahead of like, this is, this is going to be terrible. Like I just, I said it immediately, immediately, and, and it was like, it was all of those things of like, I could feel it in my body in many different ways. And I literally had to just be like, wait, wait, what's the phenomenon what's happening?
Yes. You read words on a screen. Yes. And now all of a sudden, like your heart is beating fast, your face is flushed. Like your stomach hurts what's happening. And then it was like, oh, okay. Let's, let's backtrack. Like, let's look at, what's actually happening. Let's get on the call and figure it out and trust that.
Like, if it really is quote unquote bad, That you have community and resources and support. Like you, you can, you could do this, but I feel like so much of that, like with everything you've been saying, is that, is that feeling that is like rooted in like the right or wrong. I either get it right with every client all the time, or I guess.
Wrong. Even in like the smallest way and I'm terrible and horrible, and I should never sell anything ever again. Yes. Yes. And what you gave is a perfect example of the framework I use, which is noticing and discernment as the first two steps. Right. You noticed you caught yourself, you were like, oh, I noticed something is happening here.
Right before you went down a total shame spiral, or what, before you went down the rabbit hole, you found yourself staring at the top of the rabbit hole going, whoa, whoa. I'm staring down the rabbit hole, right. That's that noticing and starting to use those muscles and then the discernment piece comes from, okay, well, given all of this information, like now, what, right.
What is that information? And it's such, it's such an important thing because the perfectionist two-step is very reactionary. The perfections to step is to see it and nail it, see it and get it right. It is just reactionary. It's working off of conditioned instinct essentially, and it's not making those, those conscious decisions.
And, um, uh, what was I going to say about that email piece? First of all, completely relatable. I don't that, that same thing, as soon as he said it, I was like, oh yeah, I recognize that panic rabbit hole. Oh, what I want to say about that is that it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint also, because this is the other thing, right?
If, if people are listening, going like, well, I wish that I had different reactions. Okay. Well, let's slow that down too, because. Let's talk about humans. Let's talk about why humans survive. Let's talk about the fact that it is better to panic and survive a threat than it is to assume something good is going to happen.
And then to be eaten by a tiger. Right. It's better to assume that that stick on the ground is a snake. That's going to bite you as opposed to seeing that thing and just being like, oh, it's just a stick. So when you have the conditions like reading an email to slow down and be like, whoop, okay, I'm safe, right?
Like nothing in this immediate situation is actually a survival thing. Okay. Now I can slow things down, but it makes sense that our bodies jumped to survival first. Right? Keep the body alive first. And that's what happens over and over and over again. So one of the things that we start to do like with my clients is orienting towards things that are good because often perfectionism is oriented towards all the things that will go wrong and their bodies have not.
Acclimated, like when they go into a room, right. They're scanning for all the threats in the room, as opposed to all the opportunities in the room, all the good things in the room, which again, in business, you do want to be seeing the opportunities and the good things and not just threats. Yeah. That is, that is so, so, so key.
And I'm glad that you like tied it into like, yeah. Like if you're, if you're at a networking event, right. It's not that like, everyone's going to hate you and they they're gonna think you suck. Like they might think you're amazing. And yeah, you got to give yourself the opportunity and what's hilarious.
Like, so I D I got on, I hopped on a quick zoom. I had time before a call and it was literally nothing. It was like, I'm, I'm just pivoting. I'm, I've decided I'm going to pivot and like, is this okay? Can you still help me? And I was like, oh yeah, totally. I think that's rad. Like, it was literally loving. And I just was like, oh my God.
Okay. But I'm really like, I'm super glad that I, that I had caught it. But yeah. And I mean, so I definitely want you to talk about and brag on what you do and how people can. Get help with this. If they are like nodding along, like, I feel personally attacked by this podcast episode. You're speaking to me because I mean, like I said earlier, I've known you for a few years.
Like, I know you're the real deal. If somebody were to say like perfectionism, you're the first person that comes to mind. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So one-on-one is really the G like what I want is really a great start with perfectionism. It is really good at, in a group setting over time, but in the beginning, when you're really diving into, you're really making those changes, things can be really scary.
And it's nice to just have sort of like a focal point. Have somebody like me, who's like, listen, I. I know where all the boulders are. I know where the big trees that you're going to get to and be like, I can't climb over that tree. So it's really good to have that, just that one-on-one support initially.
And I have a framework around perfectionist archetypes. So if people are interested, if they go to my site for, to inflow.com/perfectionist, you can read about the archetypes and see if you resonate with those things, because that is, you know, some people look at the archetypes and be like, okay, I got a little bit of that, a little bit of that little bit of that.
And it just gives you a framework for where perfectionism, maybe showing up and some ways in which the work that I do can be helpful. Yeah. That's so cool. I have forgotten that you had that. I knew that you had it and then I forgot, but now I know I don't talk about it enough, Erica. That's probably why I need, I need to go back and check it out.
So it's going to be like, yeah, girl, you're a mess. Um, no, but I will say like, I, uh, Like to two things on that, like just to like vouch for how essential the, the neck down work is, is like, I truly credit that to every big leap I've ever had. Like, it all comes down to self-trust and when I feel safe and I feel like, okay, yeah, like here, oh yeah, it will be okay if I raise my prices because like, yeah, that's totally worth it.
Right. It's kind of like why I always say, like, I don't love the blanket advice of like, just double your rates or just triple your rates because of. In my opinion, if your body is not on board, you will either totally choke on a sales call or you won't even get sales calls because you won't be marketing it because you're terrified that somebody will get on a sales call and you'll have to quote that price.
Right. So, um, I think that that is really key. And also, I it's funny, cause right before this, I was coaching in my group program and we were talking about how we're talking about kind of like a lot of this like upleveling stuff. And I was like, I just need y'all to know that. Everyone is fucked up in some way online.
Like, I'm just telling you the people you look up to. Like I posted on Facebook yesterday about it. Somebody who I respect and admire told me that a couple years ago we did a coffee chat. She was like nervous. She had imposter syndrome and I was like to talk to me. Right. Like, I'm nobody, what are you? Are you joking?
Like, she was like, no, really? And so I was like, okay, I'm just going to like, like have a moment of vulner vulnerability on Facebook. And I was basically like, yeah, I like to all the people who maybe like view me in this like certain way, let me just give you a sprinkling of the negative thoughts that I have on a recurring basis.
And like, and I'm sharing it as a reminder to let you know that like literally everyone, even the most successful people. I have some fucked up shit that they are telling themselves or believing about themselves. Like, let me guess this, does it involve blowing up your business on like a semi-regular basis?
Because I mean, I can't relate to that at all. It's like I do, I have it in me to be a barista again? Could I, um, like I'm going to go back to cleaning horse stalls. I think I'm more, uh, more, uh, you know, my skills are better used in that capacity, you know? Totally, totally. And it can be like this simplest thing, but I mean, and I also say like, again, a lot of the people I surround myself with, they're also doers.
They're high achievers. They're really driven. Like they want to keep reaching the next level, like whatever that is that they're setting for themselves in business, which is really cool. But also it's like, it has it's shadow side, which is like every, you know, a bunch of the stuff we talked about today.
And also like other stuff, like fear that it's all gonna like dry up tomorrow and like just all, all of this, like fatalistic thinking. And, and I do, I think that part of it not to keep like rambling on and on, but like, I, I really think, and I, I want to hear from you what you think about this. I think it's very much rooted in like a school rubric system, right?
Like, because how I was saying, like, when I was younger, you know, with school, like it's really around school, right. If I do this very clear thing, I should get either an a or a B, right. I'm going to do well. Right. If I do certain things I'm going to do well, no matter what. And then as when you're an entrepreneur, there's no rubric, there's no rules like it's, so open-ended.
That it feels like, well, if somebody could just give me like boxes to check, I'm really good at checking boxes. And if it came with a guarantee of results, like perfect, but it's like, oh, none of that is available. Like not now, not ever. So I would love to hear what you think about like the rubric thing.
Yeah. Oh, I a hundred percent agree. And I think that even on top of that is the thing that, you know, there is this on top of the school, that school setting, if you don't get the a or the B, or if you do terribly, you don't get a do-over, you get a terrible score and then they move on to the next thing. You don't get a chance to learn.
You don't get a chance to say, Hey, let me study differently. Hey, tell me what I didn't understand on that. Let's try it again. That doesn't exist. Yeah, you get fed specific information. You get tested on it once and that's it. That's your grade. There's no, there's no learning. There's no like, oh, well let's figure out how we can do this better the next time.
Cause there's no next time they just move on. So I think that that can also create that, like I've only got one chance. That's very perfectionist. Orientation is also is I only get one shot and I got to nail it. And if I don't nail it, bad, things are gonna happen. Right. There's that sort of feeling about it, which I, I can go right back to that, that school orientation of like, you've got to get that good.
Right? The good grade, good grade, good grade, which I also was high achiever, a teacher's pet, whatever you want to call in, you know, in school. Um, and yes, I a hundred percent agree. Like I want somebody to tell me exactly what to do every single day and what boxes I need to check. And I still to this day, Erica, and to anybody listening.
Am I spending my time. Well, like, am I doing what is really the best thing to do and what other people do with their days? I literally have, like, I think about this in my head. I'm like, how do people with her spend their time? Like, am I spending my time the best? Should I be doing something differently?
Like, what do entrepreneurs actually do all day long? Like, I literally have these conversations with myself sometimes. And I'm like, I don't know, like, I don't know. Right. Entrepreneurship is so you can do whatever you want and whatever works for you. And there's the curse in that where you're like, well, there are so many options that sometimes I feel paralyzed as to which ones I should pick.
Right. So it's a, yeah, it's a very interesting, um, yeah, that's my perspective too. I'm there with you. It's a mess. And I do, and I do think that there is sort of that like a light and shadow side where it's like. People like the people we're talking about make brilliant entrepreneurs because they are so driven and so stubborn and we'll, you know, keep pushing ahead.
But also it's like all of the stuff that we've been talking about, like lives within those people. I actually, I have some friends who are very chill, like also like one who also homeschooled her kids. We, our kids are friends, like, and she like, that's what she did. Like, she does things that light her up.
Like, especially as the, as her kids got bigger and she didn't need to be as hands-on like, she does a lot of creative projects, but like, that's what she does. Like she's mom homeschooling her kid and like it, and I have thought there have been different times where I'm like, Maybe I should just chill out and just do that.
Just be right, like just exist and like follow like creative passions and whatever. And like, and I I've said this to her too. Right. And, and then I'm like, but then I think about it and I know I would never be happy that right there, I, a hundred percent, I was talking with a client the other day who was like there, you know, in their heart of hearts, they want to just live this like Zen life, where things are peaceful because they live in chaos on a regular basis.
And they're like, they just want, they have this desire for this sort of peace and harmony and all this sort of stuff. But I'm like, you're not built like that. You would be bored in 10 minutes. You would be bored out of your skull. You're a doer, you're a creator. It's like, that's what lights you up is interacting with people.
And like, that's the thing that consistently has been shown to work for you. So like, How do you weave in these moments in your existing life? Right? How do you make these be part of your existence as opposed to this like whole other lifestyle? And I totally agree with you like it, if we need those, if we feel like we need a little more peace that we feel like we need a little more calm, it does not mean we need to blow up the existing model.
It just means like, okay, this is an aspect of something that I feel like it's like a nutrient that I'm just not getting enough of in my day. Right. Like I just need to supplement this in my day a little bit more in my life, a little bit more to feel like that is getting fed essentially. Yeah. Yeah. And like, to be able to do that, like the sematic work that you do with people too, Like almost like, like increase their tolerance to the stuff that is naturally incurring and will come up and will ultimately stand in their way or burn them out.
Right? Like, um, a lot of it is increasing your tolerance to goodness, because perfectionists are often very tolerant to the go go go. And their system actually interprets the downregulation and the calmness as a threat because it's not familiar with it. So there actually is an orientation that takes to getting used to being really uncomfortable with that slowing down, because it feels actually the body interprets it as something is wrong because it's not used to it.
So that's like a whole journey. Oh my God, I, I will not keep you, but I feel like I could do a whole other hour just talking about that. Like I love talking about it. So yes, reacclimating my body to do that. Less I feel like is it's still, it's still a practice. I mean, it took me, I'm going to say a good, probably 18 months to realize I did not have to put in the same working hours as my husband, that he wouldn't stop loving me.
If I wasn't air quotes, suffering at work. As long as he was a spoiler alert, he does not want to be an entrepreneur. He loves his work. It's not suffering. He doesn't care. It's totally fine. Meanwhile, I never brought this up to him. I was never like, are you going to be offended if I'm, if I have these real like loosey goosey casual days, like, no, I had just told my story that I would be unloved if I had an easier.
My perception of easier and better. Yup, yup. Events to just unraveling all of these stories, getting them out into the air and doing things differently, moving forward. Totally, totally. Well, this was awesome. I won't, I won't, uh, you know, keep you, but definitely, um, all of Audrey's, uh, info where to find you, everything is going to be in the show notes so that you can check out and find your archetype, your perfectionist archetype, and learn more about her and definitely, you know, reach out and say hi, but thank you so much for being here.
